Flyers – le sigh, Allies and 6th

[blackwinter]

Flyers – le sigh, Allies and 6th (again)
 Posted in 6th Edition, Allies, Analysis, Nerdrage

So Helldrakes are the new bazinga. For those of you who don’t know why yet – they can stay on the board and always vector strike and always place a template on a unit they want to (in range of course). They don’t have to hover, they don’t have to fly off or spend turns where their primary weapon isn’t doing much like the other flyers out there. As long as they can place the base, they are okay. That just smacks away one of the biggest (…only?) down-sides flyers had was if they wanted to maintain zooming, they had limited movement options or had to fly off the board which resulted in less firepower throughout a game. Or they could hover and thus be shot down as per normal.


But no. Let’s give a flyer a turrent weapon which is measured from the blood base rather than in an awkward position like the Stormraven.

What this means now is we have a flyer who can always be in fly mode and always damaging crap and thus really has no drawbacks. It’s not a fantastic model against tanks – Vector Strikes and a S6 template only do so much, but it has usable duality and just scatters infantry to the four winds (and of course the rest of the army can deal with vehicles but because everyone seems hell bent on taking 60 Marines on foot now anyway, well the Heldrake is laughing at you). And it can stay on the table doing this all game long (from T2+ obviously). Flyer defenses just became a lot harder because of this one flyer. Scythe spam had limited angles of attack and could often block itself and the usual one or two flyers which are worth taking (Helldrake, Scythes, Stormraven, Vendetta) were frustrating game-wise but not significantly game changing as investing points into triples of them was expensive and you weren’t going to maximise their benefits all the time (i.e. you’d not have angles to shoot or you’d be hovering).

The real kicker is of course, all of these flyers are AV12. This makes Flakk Missiles rather blah (a full barrage of 4x Flakks will net .89 HP damaged…yay) and the only other solution to such currently really is…other flyers. Remember, we want to try and have a balanced list overall…

This means every army without a flyer needs to ally in a flyer or have some sort of effect which can hurt other flyers reliably (and how many of them are there right now…?). Why didn’t you really need this before? Because there was no single bloody flyer which could stay on the board all game long and be an effective flyer. Stupid fucking FAQs  . This means two and three Heldrake lists are now going to be even more common but importantly, are going to be very hard to build a counter for in balanced lists across the field. Why? Because flyers weren’t built evenly across the field. Let’s see…

Tau, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Daemons of Chaos and Black Templars all have no flyer what-so-ever. Tyranids & DoC at least have flying MCs but they are much easier to deal with than normal flyers so we can put them in the middle group below.

Orks, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Grey Knights and Dark Angels have shit or medicore flyers where they aren’t that flash against other flyers or are just bad in general. Yes, the GK Stormraven goes here as lacking the S8 AP1 missiles of the Blood Angel Stormraven is pretty blargh.

Imperial Guard, Chaos, Blood Angels and Necrons all have GOOD flyers. Vendettas and Stormravens are some of the best anti-flyer stuff out there whilst Chaos obviously has started this entire problem in trying to build a balanced list and by virtue of this, gets into this list because it’s so damned good at what it does. Necrons without Doom Scythes to target air are frustrated but they still have solid options – a Night Scythe will still average 1.77 HP damage results against an AV12 flyer – much better than that Flakk ground crap!

So this leaves really three armies with a good air force counter to an opposing air force. Imperial Guard are thankfully the whores of the Imperium and their Vendettas can be taken in squads but as many have pointed out before, aren’t we tired of seeing X + IG (I need Vendettas, a blob and a Manticore honey; no no, keep your dirty lingere)? It’s a fantastic option but should not be the only one at all. Necrons shore up Chaos, Grey Knights and Tau quite easily in this department and Blood Angels can help out any of the other Imperial armies (where some of their crappy flyers can work in tandem to be less crappy – i.e. the Space Marine chibbihawk) but then you’re losing one of the major Ally advantages – covering the weaknesses of your parent army (and whilst MEQ + MEQ certainly can do well, there’s still going to be less models on the table overall and other minor setbacks as an opportunity cost for being an MEQ army).

How to Choke the Chickens

Now there are certainly other ways to deal with flyers than turn around and poke them with your flyers, particularly if someone is investing so many points in them (i.e. 3x Heldrakes). The above responses are just fine – if you were wanting to ally in one of those armies anyway (and I will admit, Blood Angels are someone I try to ally in and Imperial Guard and Necrons are some of my favorite allies but I don’t want to HAVE to take just those options. I like Tau too and Grey Knights, Eldar and the other Marine variants) but there are other responses which we of course already know. It’s just harder or potentially impossible against the Heldrake due to its bendy neck.

Points are being spent on options which aren’t on the table at the beginning – gain the advantage and hold it. Particularly important against the Heldrake since it can stay on the table all game and a little bit less so against flyers who either have to hover (Stormraven, Vendetta) to do this and still be 100% offensively effective or have to zoom off the table (Scythes). Either way, and this can be compounded if the enemy is taking units in those flying transports as less is on the table, you should have more guns and more bodies. Punish your opponent for this. Make them fight their way back and if they do, applaud them, praise their tactical acumen and then throw their flyers across the room  .

Further to this – get in combat. Particularly with your infantry against Heldrakes as they can’t place a template on a unit in combat. It’s amusing when a blob covers a good square foot of table space but can’t be shot or anything because it’s engaged with the Fearless Cultist blob. Pushing part of the initiative can mean this and sometimes not but having jamming units in a game where shooting is king isn’t such a bad idea. Your opponent might still be able to attack unengaged models with their flyers and the rest of their force but this will be more limited, particularly if your jamming units are taking up a big chunk of space.

Which leads to the next point – flyers still need places to land their base if they want to not hover, die a terrible death or go off the board edge. This is 100% still useful against Heldrakes as forcing them to hover would be great for nailing them in their bendy neck behind (and obviously spreading out your guys is a good thing against AP3 templates). Camping on objectives is also something which can be quite important here if you are able to effectively neuter their scoring when you have the points advantage. This does have an opportunity cost however as it means your opponent will be able to engage you on any front they wish and you might not be able to due to range and terrain limitations. Which leads to…

our next point! Using the table to limit the attack runs of the opponent. There’s finite space on the board and finite attack vectors for models coming in from a board edge or which can only rotate 90 degrees a turn. The Heldrake certainly can overcome this with their turret but there are still limitations upon this. You might be only forced to suffer a Heldrake a turn for example and that’s better than all of them at once.

—

In the end, the concepts of dealing with flyers tactically are the same. The concept of dealing with flyers with blunt force is the same (get your own) – the Heldrake only makes understanding the former much more necessary and being willing to use the latter probably something you should consider. At least until Games Workshop does another flyer wave and somehow gives every codex a good option (HA), approves some of those lovely Forgeworld options for general 40k play (no, not by 40k approved stamps – we’ve been through this!), changes the way flyers work (HA) or erratas more skyfire into the game (HA…yet the best solution possible… both game wise and money wise since people will then go buy these units).

[Ruhi]

Flyer olayının oturması herhalde en azından bir 6 ay daha alacak. İstanbul tayfası da çok yakınıyor hala flyerların çözümsüz gibi görünmesine. Bir de hani güçlü ünite olması bir tarafa, can sıkıcı oluyor bazen sanırım. Masada çaresiz hissetmek en kötüsü malum.

İzmir'de hala 3 flyer ile çıkılan oyun görmedim. Sanırım çıkılana kadar da flyer hikayesi oturmuş olur diye tahmin ediyorum ve umuyorum hani.

[blackwinter]

halldrake kaç puan bilmiyorum ama zaten GK 1500 e çıkamaz, sanırım blood angels da çıkamaz. SR nin çıplağı 205 puan.

bir tek necronlar var bizde çıkabilecek onuda levent yavaştan toparlıyor sanırım.

Storm talon 120 puan cvarında sınırm ama oda av 11 den dolayı 3 tane alıncak kadar efektif mi? hiç bir fikrim yok.

ancak son FAQ helldrake i çıldırttı.

[Sulcalen]

Bende 2 tane uçarca var 3. yü düşünmüyorum açıkçası, çok puan kaçıyor ve masa üzerine ne zaman geleceği ne zaman gideceği belirsiz şeylerden oldum olası rahatsız olmuşumdur. Duruma göre bakarız, 3 uçak çıkarsa genel kadro biz de 5-7 adete kadar çıkabiliriz don't mess with necrons on air

[Ruhi]

Düşünüp taşınıp, gene IG diyorum yav. Adamların bir sürü çaresi var. Hydra(Şu AA Platformu IG'nin. Aslında oyundaki tek AA platformu sanırım) falan mı alsam yav diyorum. Şöyle 3-4 tane. 16 Reroll'lu S7 havaya. Yanda Vendetta'lar falan. Artık onlar düşünsün dersin.

[Sulcalen]

Abi IG çok amaçlı bir ordu, sadece cc da sıkıntılı ama cc a girmek de gerekmiyor, her mesafede 12-24-36-36+ karşıdan gelecek herşeyi duman edecek bir sürü ekipman var ve de ta-taaa ucuz adamlar, en güzeli de bu bence

[Yasar]

Abi herşeyi anladım da stormatalon'a hangi salak 2 HP verelim diye düşündü işte onu anlamadım. Bütün flyerlar 3 HP'li benimki 2 HP'li. Yeminle üzülüyorum arkadaş. Bide her taraf 11. Bide 155 puan falan oluyo benim silah seçimimle. Bu gidişle yedek kulübesinde bekletmeye başlıcam bu garibanı

[Antimodes]

Abi, ben 6th eddan  inanilmaz memnunum. Istanbul ekibi gavur forumlariyla ayni yorumlari yapmakta. Turnuva oynayip comp playe dalma durumlari.

Ben olaya gercek savas hissiyatini vermek olarak bakiyorum. Esit cekisme istesem go oynardim. 6th ed gercekten savas olayini cok guzel yansitiyor. Ucak dedigin kuvetli bisey abi, gercekte boleyse, oyunda da bole olacak tabii.

[Aureole]

Ben bir gargoyleları masaya çıkarabilsem, mecbur öğreneceğim ama sayıyı tamamlayamadım tam. Winged Hive Tyrant ile oynuyorum.

[salnihra]

Bu uçak meselesine bir hayli kafa patlatıyorum son zamanlarda.  Öncelikle şimdilik Hydra almanı tavsiye etmem Ruhi, çok verimli değil 7 STR uçaklara karşı.  Tabii Hydra'nın zayıf bir tank olması da yardımcı olmuyor, hayatta kalamıyor garibim rakip uçak geliyor ve öldürüyor tankı küt diye (skyfire ama interceptor değil ne de olsa).

Bir de guard'a pek koymuyor ejderha, 6 astartes öldü mü acıtıyor ama 6 guardsmen gidince ordunun geneline büyük zarar vermez (İmparator onarlı görür ayrı).  Uçağı uçakla avlamak en iyi yöntem gibi görünüyor şu anda Vendetta ve SR bu işler için oldukça iyi şu anda.  İstanbul'daki turnuva metası havaya karşı savunma almayı mecbur hale getirdi. Bu nedenle pahalı mahalı ama 1500'de bir tane SR görüyoruz sıklıkla.  SR'nin popüler olmasının bir sebebi de yine İstanbul'daki turnuva metasının "ölüm yıldızı" tabir ettiğimiz birlikleri tekrar hayatımıza sokmuş olması, SR bu tip birlikleri taşımak için de LR'den daha güvenilir olması itibarıyla göz dolduruyor.  BA olanı diğer uçakları avlamakta çok iyi, GK olanı ise anti araç departmanında biraz daha zayıf ama psişikleri avlama yeteneği sayesinde (6. edisyonda psişiklerin gücünün ve kullanımının arttığını da düşünerek) kullanım alanı buluyor kendisine rahatlıkla.

[Ruhi]

Daemonlar nasıl ağır uçan birliklerle başediyorlar diye merak ediyordum. Sebebi şuymuş:

If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped
out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent.
likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no rnodels
on the badefield, his opponent automatically wins.

1500 puanda bile 5 tane falan flyer alınınca, çok az sayıda ünite ile oyuna masada başlayabiliyor. Daemonlar bu ünitelerin hemen dibine ışınlanıp, bir sonraki roundda masadan kaldırmaya çalışıyorlar. Hatta ağır flyer listelere her ordu bunu bir deneyebilir ya Heh.

[blackwinter]

Daemonlar nasıl ağır uçan birliklerle başediyorlar diye merak ediyordum. Sebebi şuymuş:

If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped
out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent.
likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no rnodels
on the badefield, his opponent automatically wins.

1500 puanda bile 5 tane falan flyer alınınca, çok az sayıda ünite ile oyuna masada başlayabiliyor. Daemonlar bu ünitelerin hemen dibine ışınlanıp, bir sonraki roundda masadan kaldırmaya çalışıyorlar. Hatta ağır flyer listelere her ordu bunu bir deneyebilir ya Heh.

onemli bir ayrinti. eyw ruhi.